Talk:List of religious leaders in 1220

From VfD:

This "list" of one entry is not likely to grow, and IMHO should be merged with all its sibling articles (1, 2) into some kind of master list. ----ssd 06:26, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Well, eventually I think we'd like to have a list for all the years, much like we're working on with State leaders by year. But like those lists it makes sense to start with more recent years and get some somewhat complete lists done. Why someone just picked 1220 I don't know, but it could grow, and I sort of hope it does. I'd say keep, or maybe merge as a subsection of a List of state leaders in 1220 page when there is one. Could be a while though.-R. fiend 07:18, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • OK, there is a List of state leaders in 1220 page already. Didn't realize that. I guess that also explains why there's a religious leaders page for the same random year. If it gets merged I think it should be discussed on the Talk:State leaders by year page, not here. I'd like to see all these pages get expanded and completed, so I think deleting is not the way to go.-R. fiend 07:26, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• Strong keep. It is likely to grow, as I somehow doubt there was only one religious leader in 1220, and more importantly, it's part of a wider set. If I have to go through and find out who led each individual church in 1220 now, I'll do it, but I'd prefer that it wait until the people working on the religious leader lists get to it. A master list on such a thing would be completely unworkable. Ambi 13:18, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. - SimonP 15:22, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. I'm guessing the year was chosen because a popular roleplaying game Ars Magica is set to the year 1220 and this page would be useful for the players of that game. The author of the page is probably a player him/herself. --Farside 17:48, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• I added the Patriarch of Constantinople, but the list of Coptic Popes suggests there wasn't anyone in that position in 1220. I'm not sure we can specify too many 'leaders' exactly - how many religions have a specific 'leader'? Average Earthman 17:58, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• I just found a whole crapload more Christian ones, linked from Lists of office-holders and List of Bishops and Archbishops. Adam Bishop 23:15, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Ok, I vote to keep. What I'd like to see more than deletion, though, is some effort at linking this page to better resources, as mentioned above. Specifically, could someone add relevant links to the categories and/or parent categories for this page, so that people that do find this page can find research resources and/or the project page managing these pages? --ssd 06:01, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• Much better now. Keep - TB 09:26, Aug 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. I hope this turns into a useful source of information; I was envisaging doing something like this myself for c. 1500 - 1530 so I can get a handle on various religious / political intrigues of the time. Sjc 05:31, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Would it be more useful to have these organized by decade? Most of the info will simply be duplicated if we have one for every year (and there would be at least 2500 of these articles if we went by year). Adam Bishop 06:24, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • It'd make things more complicated, and IMO, make these less useful. In future, I'll hopefully be able to pick any year of the last thousand, put it in, and get a list of the state leaders, religious leaders, etc. In that form, it's very useful, and interlinks nicely with the year articles. I'd rather not mess with it. Ambi 06:43, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

end moved discussion

Expanding/reorganizing

For some insane reason I have taken on the crazy impossible task of listing every Catholic archbishop and bishop in 1220, and organizing them along the lines of: general area in which they were located-archdiocese-diocese. I have been using the Wikipedia articles themselves (in English, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, and German, so far), Catholic-Hierarchy.org, and the Catholic Encyclopedia on Wikisource, to figure who was a suffragan of whom in 1220. As of now (October 2007) the most enormous problem is sorting out who goes with whom in Italy, and just what underlying political structure even existed in central and northern Italy at the time. For convenience I have assumed that Italy is divided into Sicily, the Papal States, and imperial territory, although obviously this is not quite accurate. If a diocese seemed to be in the Papal States, and the Italian Wikipedia and the Catholic Encyclopedia did not say that it had a metropolitan, I have assumed it was a suffragan of Rome. Unfortunately the Italian dioceses have become so intertwined since then through mergers and elevations to archdioceses that I just had to give up for some of them. Similarly for Spain, the subsequent elevation of archbishops and completion of the Reconquista makes it difficult to figure out who goes where in 1220, so I have assumed that they all go with Toledo unless otherwise specified. Next I will have to sort out the Holy Roman Empire, and I haven't really begun to touch eastern Europe or the crusader territories in Greece, and the Eastern Orthodox churches will probably never be this detailed. I suppose there will be books at the library which will clarify things, but I haven't checked there yet. Adam Bishop 05:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Batshit insane article. I like it. Haukur 23:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

For more on the bishops at Garðar see de:Liste der Bischöfe von Grönland and is:Garðar (Grænlandi). Haukur 23:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. I've also found some 19th century German and French works (well, written by Germans or French in Latin, so you know they must be awesome) which are supposed to list all dioceses and bishops in the middle ages (by Eubel, Gams, and LeQuien), so hopefully I can take a trip to the library soon. Adam Bishop 02:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, Gams is too comprehensive to be useful, and I haven't looked at LeQuien yet, but volume 1 of Eubel seems like it will be extremely informative. Another victory for 19th century German scholarship! Adam Bishop 02:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The other day I started feeling a bit of deja vu...I was sure I had worked on something similar to this before, and that there already was a list of archbishops and bishops from this period, in the form of a list of participants at the Fourth Lateran Council. Yesterday I finally remembered that we were given a list in "sources of medieval history" class back in my first year of grad school. I'm glad I'm such a pack rat and keep all my class notes and handouts, because I still have that - it was from "Un document retrouvé," by Achille Luchaire, in the Journal des savants, n.s. 3 (1905), 557-567. The Journal is conveniently located on Gallica (linked from our article). It doesn't give any names, but it is organized the way it is here, geographical area, archbishops, and their suffragan bishops. The only problem is that is is not explicitly organized that way, since it is just a bare list, so it will take some work to figure it out, but it shouldn't be too hard with help from Eubel and all the other sources I've mentioned. Adam Bishop 03:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Found this guy Cardinal Gualo hiding out somewhere in the back of beyond, any idea where he might fit? Ealdgyth | Talk 06:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Eubel and the list edited by Luchaire both say he was titular Cardinal-priest of St. Martin...but I can't find any other reference to a titular church of St. Martin in Rome. Maybe it no longer exists? Adam Bishop 14:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah! Nevermind, it's Santi Silvestro e Martino ai Monti, listed under S rather than M. Adam Bishop 14:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

And there is an even better article about him at Guala Bicchieri! Adam Bishop 03:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Guess he should be merged then! Ealdgyth | Talk 04:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'm done with Eubel, or I have looked at it as much as I can stand. It's a little outdated now, and it's somewhat maddening to use. So, as the article stands now:

-the archbishops and bishops of Britain are complete, and whatever other officials I could find from the Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae are also included

-Ireland seems to be complete but I'm not entirely sure

-France is complete, because there is so much information about it and whatever changes occurred between then and now are easy to understand; the only trouble I have had is figuring out what parts of France were part of the HRE at the time

-Spain and Portugal are pretty hard to deal with, since 1220 falls right in the middle of the Reconquista, and some dioceses are just about to be created, some are just about to be placed under a new metropolitan, and some are sort of titular but not really...I have found some books in the library that look promising, so that should help

-I need to find some books about Italy too but I think I have it mostly sorted out. Here there is also a problem of what was part of the Empire and what was not, and I'm assuming everything between the Alps and the Papal States is de facto independent at this point. Also, I am not sure how to sort out Aquileia, Grado, and Venice. Otherwise, I think it is all correct, at least according to Eubel and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

-The Empire is mostly easy to understand, except in the north where it overlaps with the Scandinavian dioceses. What is part of Lund and what is part of Bremen?

-Everything to the east is pretty messed up. What is going on in the Baltics? In the crusader states occupying the Byzantine Empire? In the former crusader states in the Levant? In Armenia?

-Eventually I want to include as many abbots and abbesses as I can find, although that is an even more ambitious project, I think. I have crazy dreams of organizing them by territory and by religious order...

And I would like to provide references for everything, although I should have done that as I went along...There are probably also articles about some of these dioceses and people which need to be linked or redirected. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

For abbots and abbesses in England and Wales I have Knowles' Heads of Religious Houses which only goes to 1216 but gives the next office holder so it'll cover most of England and Wales. I suppose I could get that up soonish. I'd planned on actually getting all those into at least lists for the various abbeys at some point, so they'll exist sometime in Wikipedia, once i finish with the bishops and archbishops. Im sure there must be something similar which covers the Irish and Scots abbeys and priories, but I've never had any reason to go hunting for that sort of data so I'm clueless. Ealdgyth | Talk 21:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Ealdgyth/Abbey list with 1220 heads there's a start. I'll keep updating it as I get a chance. Ealdgyth | Talk 04:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks! I've got a list on my sandbox too. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Same guy

These two: Bishop of Bamberg - Ekbert von Andechs (1203-1231) and Bishop of Bagnorea - Ekbert of Meran (1203-1237) are/is the same guy.Tusbra (talk) 01:18, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

WHAT?

What the heck kind of an article is this. My opinion is that which merge this with other garbage and trim down the list so we don't include every bishop EVER.

LukeScalone (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Merging

I know this list is a bit crazy, but I personally find it very useful. Maybe some info could be removed (I suppose it's not necessary to list every single parish priest...). It's not really an indiscriminate list, actually it would be useful if we could make a list like this for every year. Anyway, please discuss the merger on the talk page first. Apparently everything that has been done to the page over the past couple of weeks escaped my notice through my intermittent watchlist-checking. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:33, 9 December 2013 (UTC)