Talk:List of kings of Dál Riata

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order of kings and earlier kings

Indeed, the order is reversed for "chronological order"; it should state "in reverse chronological order". What is the benefit with listing the last king first?

Also, this list begins with Fergus I (implying this is the list of kings for Scottish Daladria): what of the Legendary Kings of Irish Daladria?

See http://www.magma.ca/~mmackay/dalriada.html

-Liberty

Move to List of Kings of Dál Riata ?

Now that Dál Riata is the consensus, I would like to move this page to List of Kings of Dál Riata. I haven't checked on the category Kings of Dalriada, but presumably we'd want a new cat Kings of Dál Riata. It would be a lot of fiddling to change all the pages (especially those List of State Leader in Year X things - there must have been a technological solution to that !). It would be nice if we could agree on naming standards before moving anything, but I suppose that's harder work, and we'd want a consensus before doing that, so perhaps not. Regardless, I am not suggested we rename the individual kings from "of Dalriada" to "of Dál Riata". As for Ireland, I wish to follow an academically consensual route (few subjects could be less influenced by "popularity" than what to call Eochaid Buide). Unfortunately there's no equivalent of Byrne to hand for Scotland, so I have attempted to get the spelling of the genitives correct. Having already been corrected once, it's unlikely that this list is correct. Attention from Gaelic-speakers, and especially from experts in Old Irish, would be necessary to confirm the details.

If anyone objects to the move, please do see say so here, and we'll take the voting route (although I hope we can avoid that). I will put a note up on the Irish, Northern Irish and Scottish noticeboards. Angus McLellan 00:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How to name Dál Riata kings

Please pick holes in my suggestions: bold are presently missing.

Even more mythical kings before Erc - list but no articles needed
Erc - no article needed ?

Always been suspicious about this guy; mainly because Erp seems to have been an important Pictish figure, and, of course, Erc is the P-Celtic equivalent.

Loarn - ditto unless it's a redirect to Cenél Loairn ?
Fergus I - Fergus Mór mac Eirc
Óengus Mór - no article unless a redirect to Cenél nÓengusa ?
Domangart I - Domangart mac Fergusa
Comgall - Comgall mac Domangairt
Gabhran - Gabrán mac Domangairt
Conall I - Conall mac Comgaill
Aedan - Áedán mac Gabráin

This guy is capable of an article of FA quality.

Eochaid I - Eochaid Buide mac Áeda
Connad - Connad Cear (or Cerr ?)
Domnall I - Domnall Brecc
Ferchar I - Ferchar mac (gen. Connad: Connaid ?)
Dunchad - Dúnchad mac Duban (?), putative great-grandson of Eochaid mac Gabráin.
Conall II - Connal Crandomna (Crannamna ?)
Domangart II - Domangart mac Domnaill
Maelduin - Máel-Duin mac Conaill
Domnall II - Domnall Donn
Ferchar II - Ferchar Fota
Eochaid II - Eochaid mac Domangairt (byname ? crooknose, to check)
Ainbcellach - Ainbcellach mac Ferchair
Fiannamail - Fiannamail ua Dunchada. Other nepotes Dunchado, Béc(c) (AU s.a. 707), Tuibride (AU s.a. 719) ?
Selbach - Selbach mac Ferchair
Dúnchad (m)Bec - not much of an article.
Dungal - Dúngal mac Selbaich
Eochaid III - Eochaid mac Echdach
Alpin I - Alpin mac Echdach
Muiredach - Muiredach mac Ainbcellaich
Eogan - Eógan mac Muiredaig (doubtful ?)
Aed - Áed Find
Fergus II - Fergus mac Echdach
Eochaid IV - Eochaid mac Áeda

And from now on things are doubtful, following Broun, "Pictish Kings".

Donncoirce - ?
Conall mac Taidg - under Picts
Conall mac Áeda - ditto ?
Domnall mac Caustantín
Áed mac Boanta

Interregnum ...

Gofraidh mac Fergusa, Caitill Find and eventually the Uí Imair.

Thoughts ? Angus McLellan 20:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Couple things:

Rather than create a new category, propose the existing category for renaming.
Regarding a "technological solution for all that," how about WP:AWB?

--Craig Stuntz 14:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Move

Moved from List of Kings of Dalriada to List of Kings of Dál Riata. Seems obvious and uncontroversial, but please move it back, and we can debate the issue, if you have real objections. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Scottish got it wrong

If you read any recent books on early Scottish history, you'll find that many historians claim the records supporting the Dál Riata king-list end with Muiredach mac Ainbcellaig, citing the work of Marjorie O. Anderson. It seems, however, that historians frequently fail to verify their sources, especially thus historians prior to who lacked modern rigor. There is a list of Dal Riata king with reigns from 728 to 843, within the Scottish Latin Chronicles. Marjorie O. Anderson dismissed these, likely because they overlap with the Pictish kings who appear in the Scottish king-list. She then attempted to reposition these kings to match earlier rulers in the Synchronisms of Flann Mainstreach, ignoring inconsistencies in reign lengths when compared to the Duan Albanach and the mismatched patronymics. This approach resembles forcing a square peg into a round hole.

However, her theory falls apart upon realizing that the version of the Synchronisms of Flann Mainstreach she used, the one from Skene’s edition, was truncated. Her husband, Alan O. Anderson, published his own version in Early Sources of Scottish History, where he noted that one source was longer than Skene’s version. After reviewing the available manuscripts, it’s clear that all surviving versions are longer and include a second Alpin mac Eochaid prior to Cineath mac Alpin, who is recorded as having "took the kingship of Scone through battles."

Thus, there is no need for transposing the Cenél nGabráin kings. When left in place, as they appear in the Synchronisms and with the additional entries from the Latin Chronicle, they align perfectly. The only remaining kings missing from the Synchronisms are those belonging to Cenél Loairn. 2605:A601:A700:7C00:9CFA:A30B:1BE6:A5B1 (talk) 04:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]