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December 11

How can school records be saved

Re: Paul Martin (illustrator). He attended an art school in the early 1900s. It's stated in the article and backed up with a reference from the New York Times. But the article also states the years he attended and his instructors. That can only be backed up with the old record cards (similar to 3x5 cards) on file. I received a scan of them, but I don't think the picture can be downloaded to Commons due to copyright issues. Do they still apply to something dated to 1906? That date is on the card. Can the picture be downloaded to Wayback instead and reachable via a reference in the WP article? Can the picture just be downsized? Thanks. JimPercy (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The article Paul Martin (illustrator) already goes into mind-boggling detail and digressions: see note "n" in particular. Is it perhaps time to do some pruning of the article's content? -- Hoary (talk) 12:17, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Half of article's bytes are in references and hiddens and necessary to back up content. Note "n" is about a model twice pictured in the article (Foreign service cover, H-O poster). So you think that should be scaled back or mostly eliminated or hidden. JimPercy (talk) 14:07, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Note "n" reads in part:

The artist and model [i.e. the article subject and a boy who modeled for him, respectively] lived on opposite ends of a very long street in Millwood, N.Y. They first met at "Rose and Carl's (for Carlyle) Restaurant" in Millwood. It was a short-lived casualty of the Great Depression. The boy's parents were the namesakes and operators. It was located across from the railroad depot on Station Road. Regular customer Martin often ordered stuffed cabbage and apple pie. He combined getting freshly cooked meals with going to the adjoining post office. Their photo sessions took place from 1930 to 31. Salary: $0.15/pose or $5+/half-day, with free snacks. Donald's [i.e. the boy's] progression follows: a. graduated from Horace Greeley School, 1941; b. participated in Operation Overlord (ADSEC unit); c. lettered in three sports at Rider College, 1946–48; d. worked as a sportswriter for The Daily Item of Port Chester, N.Y., 1948–49; e. worked as an associate editor for Progressive Grocer, 1956–61; f. attended the 65th anniversary ceremonies of the Normandy landings in France, 2009. Video. "Americans in Wartime Experience." "Memories" (paragraph 2). Wayback Machine.

I don't understand, JimPercy, how the boy's subsequent life informs us about Paul Martin, the ostensible subject of the article, or why anyone needs to know much of the other material. If the reply is something like "It provides color and helps to set the scene", yes: for a magazine article or, better, a book. But this is instead an encyclopedia article. -- Hoary (talk) 01:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I contacted some New York chamber of commerce or something, and they out of the blue told me about someone who actually knew the artist. That place gave me the contact information, without my asking for it. It's very rare to have information from a model of an artist. They are highlighted by Norman Rockwell in his autobiography, but nonexistent elsewhere. Perhaps because info on them does not exist. I think the detail adds to thoroughness. Not for the newsy factor! For instance, they lived on opposite ends of the same street. That can be backed up in the U.S. Census of 1930. There is some outside information on the model in the last sentence of note n. Click "Memories" (2nd paragraph). Maybe I should just put half of note n into a hidden text. But the more deleted, the more lost credibility. Yes, I figured that part you stated would be most objectionable. I stated in the article that the artist often hired local boys. Hence, where they met backs that up. The part "Regular customer to free snacks", from my perspective, gave some insight into the life of the artist, which you seemingly think goes off track. I suppose esp. the wording "free snacks," but the model sure remembered that part. Yes, facts and accuracy and not color. JimPercy (talk) 02:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Update. Fixed. JimPercy (talk) 04:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

JimPercy, whence did you receive the scan? Offline materials that can be accessed at or requested from institutional archives can still be cited with {{cite archive}}. If received from someone's personal collection, the information cannot be cited at all, even if you upload it somewhere, due to the unverifiable paper trail. Folly Mox (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Scan received from Archives of American Art, Smithsonian Institution. His school is also mentioned in the Infobox. JimPercy (talk) 14:10, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like the material you received can be cited without any image upload necessary. I don't understand c:Help:Public domain well enough to determine if your scan can be uploaded: there are some categories of 1906 U.S. media whose copyrights don't expire till 2026. Folly Mox (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

But an image offers more proof. There is already a citation in place. Maybe I can just upload to Wayback two of the three "record cards." (I would just have to crop out the third card from the image.) They date to 1902 and 1903. Out of copyright? The most important detail is on those two cards, anyway. They both list the artist's name, address, birthdate, date of admission, and enrolled classes. JimPercy (talk) 19:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC) Update. It seems that template at Commons would work. The second card is dated Oct. 1903 (for school year '03-'04), so that predates 1904. JimPercy (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Anything 1904 or earlier is public domain in the US and can be uploaded to Commons. The level of detail in the article certainly feels excessive to me personally, but JimPercy has clearly put a lot of work into it. I'm not recommending any course of action regarding the prose / footnote situations. Folly Mox (talk) 13:45, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I guess I'm not understanding why you feel the need to upload the file? As Folly stated, you can simply cite it -- unless someone is contesting this? I didn't see any mention or reverts on the article page itself. TiggerJay (talk) 03:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have glanced through articles about artists who attended this school. But they either don't mention their (then well-known) instructors by name or else back it up with a printed source. JimPercy (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

How to nominate a website for blacklisting

Over the years, several IP editors have attempted to insert links to a certain commercial website. I think it is time to blacklist that website. Constant314 (talk) 13:36, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Constant314, see MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist § Proposed additions. Folly Mox (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Constant314 (talk) 13:45, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Another question

What does it mean if a language has a star icon next to it? User332224 (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@User332224: Assuming you're referring to in the list of languages on an article sidebar, the stars indicate that the article's equivalent on that language's Wikipedia is considered a featured article (if the star is gold) or good article (if silver) by that project. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:CALC on a simple claim

Is it acceptable to state that the Little Rock tornado was the first to touch down in the March 31 tornado outbreak? This can be verified here on the storm events database, typically considered reliable, where it is the first entry chronologically (titled MARTINDALE, but entails Little Rock). Departure– (talk) 16:49, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, I would say that if something was chronologically first, then that would be okay. At worst I would boldly add it to the article. But if it reverted or contested, take it to the talk page, as there might be other reasons beyond simple CALC that is involved. TiggerJay (talk) 00:13, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguating pages where visitors overwhelmingly go to a particular topic

Some time ago, I opened a RM to move Android to Android (disambiguation) and retarget to the operating system. There was a unanimous consensus against that. What I'm wondering about is where the line of when to disambiguate versus redirect lies. Visitors to Dime and English overwhelmingly go to the American coin and the language, respectively, but would I be correct in my reading of WP:1OTHER PRIMARY that a redirect would be justified in these cases?

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=English

https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Dime

Thanks

JayCubby 20:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it is best to simply review both yours as well as prior RMs for those articles, as there were a lot of good points and references to policies and precedents mentioned. TiggerJay (talk) 00:11, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how WP:ONEOTHER applies – Dime and English each have several entries, not just two. jlwoodwa (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

How to add copyright information to an image?

I recently uploaded a file to Wikipedia and I got a notification saying that the image had no copyright information and I needed to add it, but I can't find how to add the copyright information.

I know the copyright license and it is considered free to use.

Thank you! ミラへぜ (talk) 21:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I will note that images are not relevant to the draft process, which only considers the text and sources. I would just remove the image for now until you are able to update the copyright information later. 331dot (talk) 21:33, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The image seems to be a professionally taken image, how did you obtain it? 331dot (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not a photographer of any kind, this image was taken from a professional site that uses a public domain license for all of its images. ミラへぜ (talk) (ping me!) 23:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Where did you get it, please? Be specific. DS (talk) 01:21, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

For example, [1] has no indication this pic is free to use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

December 12

Have I successfully removed the promotional content from this article?

The owner of emailSanta.com made WP:COI and WP:YESPROMO edits at his own article yesterday. I tried to remove the "fluff" and restore the WP:NPOV. Has the WP:NPOV been restored, or is it still too promotional? Félix An (talk) 01:39, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

You did a good job removing a lot of the fluff, although the article does need a lot of work to improve it overall, but definitely it has been improved. I did warn the other editor of WP:OWN, however I would also encourage you to take some of these items to the article talk page and/or the user page and form a discussion instead of simply placing warnings over your concerns. TiggerJay (talk) 02:15, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely pageblocked Kringle Claus from EmailSanta.com. Cullen328 (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Doctor article

How to post an article on a Doctor ? It is not allowing to post on wilepedia Shashankrao28 (talk) 07:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Moved from talk. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 07:22, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Shashankrao28, I assume that you mean Wikipedia. Please read WP:NPERSON and Your first article. Doctors are not treated any differently than people of any other profession. Cullen328 (talk) 07:29, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

page deletion

Hello there,

I am a Wikipedia user under the name Rezzanx. I've been working for a while on a page, titled, Zafer Aracagök. I had edited this page many times but I had not submitted my draft as completed. Yet this morning I found out that my page has been deleted 21:58, 11 December 2024 by a user, Sphilbrick without a prior notice on the basis of "copyright infringement". As far as I know, this user or Wikipedia should have warned me beforehand if there were any mistakes that I should correct before the deletion of my page. Can you please explain and give me back my draft?

All the best,

Rezzan Rezzanx (talk) 10:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Rezzanx Warnings are not required, especially for particularly serious issues like copyright violations. Copyright violations potentially put Wikipedia in legal jeopardy, so we must take them seriously. We cannot restore a copyright violation.

I do see that you took a photo of the man you were writing about. What is your connection to him? 331dot (talk) 10:54, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello there,

Thank you for your reply. But I did not submit this page for a review and publicized it and no one had seen it yet. Can I please retrieve it given the promise I will immediately delete the issue that caused a copyright infringement?

Btw, he is a friend from academia we used to work together.

Thank you. Rezzanx (talk) 11:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Rezzanx you could ask Sphilbrick if they could restore any parts of the article that were not copyright violations. They did this for another article on their talk page recently, unfortunately they were only able to restore one sentence. TSventon (talk) 11:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Rezzanx, the copyright issue is just one of several. Much of your text lacks independent verifiable sources, and the refs you do give include his own work, hardly an independent third-party source, and YouTube. You also have multiple spamlinks to sales sites for his books Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:35, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Rezzanx (talk) 15:06, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Separately from the issue of copyright, any words coming from the subject are exactly the wrong place to start an article. Wikipedia has little interest in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is almost entirely interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources. If enough material is cited from independent sources to establish notability, a limited amount of uncontroversial factual information may be added from non-independent sources. ColinFine (talk) 14:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Rezzanx (talk) 15:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

You are correct that I did not provide a warning "beforehand". He thought this was required "as far as I know". I see you have 16 edit so I'm not sure where you came to your knowledge about practices.

It is quite common to provide warnings to new editors when edits aren't consistent with Wikipedia rules but, as has already been pointed out, prior warnings are not required in the case of copyright violations. I presume you saw my edit summary, so you know the reason for deletion was copyright infringement and that edit summary identified the source document.

I see that you have re-created the article. Unfortunately, it appears to still containcopied and pasted passages from the source document, which are a violation unless the source document is properly licensed.

I will let someone else delete the current draft.

I also urge you to read wp:coi given your relationship with the subject. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:11, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Can you please note that I am in the phase of modifying the article and making changes along the recommended lines? Rezzanx (talk) 15:03, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I highly recommend you look carefully over WP:YFA before you proceed further. You might be waisting a lot of your time and others. TiggerJay (talk) 15:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rezzanx In case it is not clear from the above discussion please note that you may not start a draft with a copyright violation even if you intend to trim it down later to remove the violation. The reason is that, since Wikipedia is a Wiki, the original whole material will still reside in its page history. If you want to take that approach, you must start with offline editing software exclusively saved on your own device. Anything saved on-wiki must be paraphrased in your own words, or include only a limited amount of direct quotation. Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:20, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rezzanx, you have been given bucketloads of advice on COI, copyright, referencing and neutral tone, all of which you have largely ignored. If a third version appears that is anything like s non-compliant as the first two, I will block you from editing. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I understand now that you have blocked me from making any further changes to my article. I do not really understand your threatening tone when I have been doing my best to comply with the rules and regulations of Wikipedia (of which I might have been a bit slow to learn or understand). I kindly asked for help and I don’t think I have deserved such rebukes and blockage. Rezzanx (talk) 11:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rezzanx you are not blocked. You have been given advice, which you have not followed. If you don't understand the advice, ask here. Just reposting basically the same stuff will get you nowhere, and if you see my pointing that out as a threat, sobeit Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:26, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I have been nice and kind to you.

But thank you for being Trump.

Save your aggression and rudeness for ignorant and belligerent Americans like you. Rezzanx (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Your comment is violating the rule of WP:NPA. Please remain civil when discussing with other fellow editors. Have a good day. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 15:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Can someone please help me with a table?

I have some skills with tables, but this one List of bailiffs and dames grand cross of the Order of St John is a bit beyond me at the moment. I would like to add someone to 1980. Can someone please help?

18 December 1980
Olivera Rowena, Lady Traherne OBE (article coming)
Dame Grand Cross
b. 3 September 1910
d. 22 October 1986

Citation: "The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem" (PDF). London Gazette. London, UK. 1980-12-18. p. 17522.

Thank you! BJCHK (talk) 12:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@BJCHK: If you already have 7250 edits and some table skills then I suspect you just need help with rowspan which is often the tricky part (together with colspan which isn't used in this table). Maybe it's time to start learning it. You can copy the 1956 row and adapt it. There will now be two consecutive "Dame Grand Cross" cells. Merge them by inserting rowspan="2"| right before Dame Grand Cross in the 1956 row, and remove the whole ||Dame Grand Cross in the new 1980 row. Check in preview before saving. The cell structure can break if it's not done right. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:11, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done. As PrimeHunter said above, you can always copy format from existing rows and modified them for your own entry. Editing table in visual mode will be way easier as well. Tutwakhamoe (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Tense in relation to online-only video games and unofficial fan revivals

I noticed that Need for Speed: World was past tense in the period between the shutdown and the release of SBRW, when it was changed back to present tense.

There is an upcoming fan revival for The Crew, should I change the tense when it comes out? DB554 (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Not "when it comes out", @DB554. Rather "When there has been enough independent reliable commentary to allow the article to be validly updated with new information". As part of that update, it may well be appropriate to change the tense. ColinFine (talk) 17:14, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:VG/TENSE is the guideline on this issue. I have no idea if a fan revival would be a suitable reason to think that the game was still accessible. I'd ask on the nuance at WT:VG. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Image requests

Is there a template email or something like it that can be used when requesting that someone release an image under an accetable license? For instance, if I wanted some images of voice actors recording Forest 404 and I contacted the BBC, what exactly should I be asking or where should I be directing them? TipsyElephant (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello, @TipsyElephant. Please see WP:PERMISSION. ColinFine (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:A picture of you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:54, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

December 13

Page on Table 2 Fallacy

Hi, I drafted a page on the Table 2 Fallacy. How do I publish this? It seems to be stuck as a draft.

Thanks, Tom Tomayates (talk) 16:01, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I added the information to your draft to allow you to submit it; however, if you submitted it, it would be declined quickly, as you only have a single source. Wikipedia articles summarize multiple independent reliable sources. 331dot (talk) 16:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

If you look on the draft page itself, Draft:Table 2 Fallacy you will see the option to submit, but I would advise against it because it will likely be rejected. At the moment, your article does not establish that it is a notable subject through the use of multiple, independent, secondary sources. If you haven't done so yet, I recommend you first review WP:YFA. TiggerJay (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

And indeed, the single source is not independent. Once several people wholly unconnected with the originators of the term have published substantial materials about it, will a Wikipedia article about it be possible. Until then, it will fail Wikipedia's test for notability, and any time spent on trying will be time wasted. ColinFine (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

How to create a .css file?

I'll like to use some CSS on the portal pages, but I can't change the Page content model of Wikipedia:Portal/styles.css from “wikitext” to CSS. I need some help.Guilherme Burn (talk) 16:59, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Guilherme Burn, done. Mathglot (talk) 17:46, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@Guilherme Burn: For use in TemplateStyles you need an interface administrator to change it to Sanitized CSS and not just CSS. You can use {{Edit interface-protected}} on the talk page, or see if an interface admin drops by here, or create a CSS page in a subpage in the template namespace and then move it to where you want it. (talk) 18:49, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Changed again; to sanitized CSS. I don't see a need to be an interface admin. @PrimeHunter. Mathglot (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh. In userspace it requires an interface admin but apparently not in project space. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:30, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Elan (programming language)

During 2024, Richard Pawson FBCS and his team have been developing and publicising a new language for teaching computer programming in British schools. It is called Elan and bears no relation to the Wikipedia page ELAN (programming language) and its now defunct (I believe) language. If it is agreed to create a Wikipedia page about this new language Elan, how should I best address the potential clash of page name? Note that this Elan is normally spelled in mixed case. Bernardboase (talk) 18:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Bernardboase, there is a long list of items at the disambiguation page for Elan, and the new article would likely need parenthetical disambiguation in its title. Whatever the title ends up being, it would have to be unique. Mathglot (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

You needn't worry much, Bernardboase. Where helpful (or necessary), distinctions can be fine: see for example the pair Tommy Godwin (cyclist, born 1912) and Tommy Godwin (cyclist, born 1920). And it's common for such "disambiguations" to be reconsidered and improved. Thus if I wanted to create the draft for an article on this Elan of Pawson et al, and if this Elan can be said to have been created this year, I might title my creation Draft:Elan (programming language, 2024–), aware that this might not be the best title for it but confident that it could be improved by those people who are more familiar than I am with the intricacies of titling . -- Hoary (talk) 22:03, 13 December 2024 (UTC) PS: But I fully agree with ColinFine below: notability (as defined by and for Wikipedia) is a far more important issue than the niceties of titling. -- Hoary (talk) 22:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @Bernardboase. You say "If it is agreed to create a Wikipedia page about this new language". I advise not to worry about the title, or any other aspect at all of the proposed article, until you have answered that question.

I suspect that it is TOOSOON for a language developed in 2024, but I may be wrong. The question is, can you find several sources, published by reputable publishers or organs, where people wholly unconnected with Pawson and his team have written at some length about Elan? Unless the answer is "yes", you will not be able to establish that the language (yet) meets Wikipedia's criteria for notability, and no article is currently possible. See WP:42 for a discussion of suitable sources. ColinFine (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

December 14

Question for administrator

Can i get a copy of the page i did, it was for university and i need it for my assignment. thanks --Andreuni993 (talk) 00:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

(moved from talk) '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 01:53, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Andreuni993 If you are on desktop, on the "Tools" bar there should be a "Download as PDF" option. I'm not sure which exact article you are referring to, but keep in mind that Wikipedia might not be an acceptable source for university assignments. Tutwakhamoe (talk) 04:21, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I have looked up your contributions and can't find any page that you did. Or maybe you are talking about User:Andreuni993/sandbox that has been deleted because it violated the rules? ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 04:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Andreuni993, I have trouble believing that a course at any university would invite its students to submit, or to submit work based on, fawning profiles such as this. -- Hoary (talk) 05:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

How do I link category language links?

I created a category document 'Category:South Korean LGBTQ artists' and I want to link it to the Korean Wikipedia document '분류:대한민국의 성소수자 미술가', but the link is not working. If possible, please help me connect it. Melonsida (talk) 08:55, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

That links works for me. You need to click on the blue "ko" text, not the red hangul text. Maproom (talk) 09:13, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

The language link connection with 'ko' is not working. I heard that it is possible to create a link with wikidata. If possible, please connect it. Melonsida (talk) 09:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)